Reimagined and Revamped. Fighting the spread of nonsense often feels like a Sisyphean task. However, the joy is in making the information available, not the hope of conversion.

Pro-lifers: I simply don’t believe you.

Since the shooting of Dr. tiller, and every time something happens to an abortion clinic or a doctor who provides family planning services, there is a spate of articles and blog posts about abortion. These range from the calm and understanding to the ridiculous and inflammatory. I fully understand that pro-lifers think that abortion is murder and that murderers are getting away with an evil act.

The thing is..I simply don’t believe you.

I don’t believe you because I have never once heard of a pro-lifer acting in a way that indicates that they really believe what they say. Here is what I mean.

According to the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists miscarriages happen so often they rival the number of abortions that are performed. Specifically,

Miscarriages occur in about 15–20% of pregnancies. Most occur in the first 13 weeks of pregnancy. Some miscarriages take place before a woman misses a menstrual period or is even aware that she is pregnant.

This is confirmed even at pro-life sites (this one puts the number at 40%). That means that if you are truly pro-life, you would be holding a funeral, like you would for any dead child, if you (or your wife, or whoever would be the one who gets pregnant) have a period while trying to get pregnant, or even are just having unprotected sex. You would check to see if the blood contained a fertilized egg (you need a lab for that), and even if you couldn’t prove there was one, you would be having the same type of funeral that you would for any child who died regardless, since, by your standard, there is a dead child in there. You would do this for a fertilized egg, a blastocyte, and embryo whether you can see them or not. Otherwise I simply don’t see how you can claim that you think that a fertilized egg is a baby.

I don’t believe you when you say that an embryo is a baby. If you thought that then you would be appalled at the state of our healthcare system, one that is allowing a health care crisis beyond that of any other malady that humans get. There are between 800,000 and a million miscarriages a year (its hard to pin down because many times a woman doesn’t know she was pregnant nor that she miscarried). Compare this with other leading causes of death:

Number of deaths for leading causes of death:
  • Heart disease: 631,636
  • Cancer: 559,888
  • Stroke (cerebrovascular diseases): 137,119
  • Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 124,583
  • Accidents (unintentional injuries): 121,599
  • Diabetes: 72,449
  • Alzheimer's disease: 72,432
  • Influenza and Pneumonia: 56,326
  • Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome, and nephrosis: 45,344
  • Septicemia: 34,234

If you really believed that a blastocyte is a baby, you would be urging your politicians and health officials to be funding the #1 natural killer of people in America. Where is the outrage that so little is spent on preventing such a pervasive cause of death like miscarriage (I cant even fund the number) while over 170 billion dollars is spent on measly diabetes?

[sidenote: this argument has been feebly answered before, but its done by creating a straw man. No one is saying that murder isn’t bad, but we as a society fight hard to prevent murder and prevent and treat disease. We pursue both paths vigorously through government, education, law enforcement, and research and medicine. Pro-lifers only seem to care about the perceived murder. Somehow the death of an embryo is far worse is it is caused rather than natural]

I don’t believe that you really think conception is the formation of a human life because you don’t, as a stringent practice, name your embryo. Oh you think about names, but when that baby is born, you name it and that is the name he or she has for the rest of their life. If you thought a fertilized egg was a baby you would go through the naming process before you got pregnant or very quickly thereafter. The fact that its hard to do because you don’t know if its a boy or a girl is really your problem isn’t it? I suppose you could stick with names like Jean, or Chris, or Pat.

I don’t believe you when you say abortion is wrong because you do not fight hard enough to make alternatives viable. It costs about 15,000 dollars to have a baby in a hospital, but this is covered by insurance. It costs a similar amount to adopt a baby but it is not covered by anything (although there are starting to be some avenues for help that mostly involve financing). Your choice to have your own children instead of adopting is also telling. On this (and probably only this) I agree with focus on the family. If you want abortions to be made illegal, you have a moral obligation to adopt and make adoption a low bar to hurdle. Why should people put their children up for adoption, if in all likelihood, the child will not get adopted. Think of it, there are currently 2 million kids up for adoption and only about 1.5 million of them get adopted. That leaves 500,000 kids “in the system”, and now you want to add another 1.3 million or so to that?

I also don't believe you when you say that you think a fertilized egg is a baby because while you rail against unwed mother, unwanted pregnancies, and abortions, you don't do anything to help to prevent them in the first place. You cry on and on about teenagers having sex and unwed mothers and then promote utter nonsense as a remedy for that. Instead of providing information based programs to give everyone the tools they need to be cautious and knowledgeable about sex and pregnancy prevention in a realistic and proven fashion. you promote programs that increase unwanted pregnancies. You conflate "abstinence" as an effective prophylactic with "abstinence only", a ridiculous, demonstrably poor method of educating our teenagers about their sexuality.

You say you are pro-life. You say life starts at conception. But you don’t act as if you believe it yourself, why should I?

[second sidenote: I know that some pro-lifers do some of these things. I’m sure a number of them have adopted, although when I have asked people marching in front of a clinic I have so far found that none of them have. I’m sure some of them have written to health officials to help ease the rate of miscarriages, but I have never seen an organized response toward this. I’m sure some of them have attended funerals for late term miscarriages. The measly amount of pro-lifers that do any of these things, and startlingly few, if any, who do all of them, is the reason why I simply don’t believe most pro-lifers really believe what they say]

[Third sidenote: My wife an I are having a baby soon. We had intended on adopting..but err…um… well things happen. We may still. Anyway, I say this because I wrote a lot about miscarriages in here, and I understand that it sounds like I am mocking pro-lifers in their contentions. I am dead serious about what I wrote and am not mocking people who have had miscarriages at all. Women who experience a miscarriage are more significantly affected than those who have abortions, and I can totally understand the loss and horror they must experience, as do the fathers I am sure, particularly for late term miscarriages. For anyone who has had a late term miscarriage, my heart goes out to you.]


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a) congratulations
b) we are thinking about adopting for the second child, as the first one left my wife under medical stress
c) very thoughfull blog entry, although I'm lucky enough to live in a country were the pro-livers wouldn't even dare to stand in front of clinic
a) Thanks! This one is a boy, we are preparing for the oncoming chaos.
b) I am so sorry to hear about that. But I am very happy to hear about the oncoming adoption. I held a newborn in my arms the other day, and I immediately realized I could pour as much love into an adopted child as I do my own. That was one of my small fears of adopting. Now I know its not an issue. I'm not sure if you were worried about that or not.
c) thanks again. Which country do you live in? Is there more space? LOL.
2 replies · active 824 weeks ago
well our first has been a boy, so we probably would go for a girl, if we're doing the adoption thing.
b) yeah that's one of my worries, too and I sure do hope that I won't be an issue than for us too
c) actually we're relativly crowded around here and I know we have our share of idiots [right wing nuts, homeopathy came from here], but I'm still convinced you wouldn't get through with shouting, insulting and threatening people going to a clinic
b) it wont. I'm sure of it.
c) "homeopathy came from here"

Ahh... Germany!

:)
My wife had a miscarriage at 11 weeks and the result was a little baby which is now cremated and in the niche at the back of the church next to her great-grandmother. Your comments are slightly thoughtless considering the huge emotional toll and loss women feel when they miscarry at any stage. As it turns out, mothers who miscarry have a natural pro-life reaction. Just try telling a mother who has recently miscarried that it was just a blob of tissue and they shouldn't make a big deal out of it.
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maddogdelta's avatar

maddogdelta · 824 weeks ago

Just saw this entry posted in a comment thread at Pharangyula. Brilliant!
chuck,

Thanks for visiting but did you bother to read the whole post including two last side notes? Or did you just skim. I even linked to a page about miscarriages and a women's emotional response. What was the name of the fetus you cremated? Have you now adopted? Would you have cremated a 5 day old blastocyst? Have you personally done any of the things that would lead me to believe that you really think that life starts at conception?

Personally I don't think people should have abortions after the first trimester unless health issues for the mom or fetus arise. The emotional strain is too big and there are increasingly significant health issues. But that is just my opinion.

Mad Dog, welcome!
Sorry for your loss, Chuck, but you are missing the point. The natural assumption is that 'everyone else is just like me', but in this case funerals and burials for miscarriages are rare. People often attach a great deal of sentiment to an object, animate or not, and when the magnitude of those affections does not match our own, we consider them freaks. Try telling a child it's just a stuffed animal, or just a blanket, or whatever.

I'm not trying to mock you, or to convince you to change. I'm just trying to point out that many people do not share your attachment. Perhaps even a majority.

Address the enormous number of miscarriages that occur naturally. Explain why the pro life movement says and does nothing regarding this. Explain why reducing the demand for abortions through family planning and contraception is wrong. Explain your solution to reduce the number of abortions to zero without impacting other's right. Once you've done this, then maybe you'll have something to say that I want to hear.
Here's a quick test to see if the pro lifers are being honest or not.

Quick research reminded me of something that I'd heard before. Older couples are more likely to have problems having children, the rates of genetic disorders are greater as are the rates of spontaneous abortions (miscarriages).

So, have the pro lifers embarked on a campaign to urge women over 30 not to have babies because their chances of having a miscarriage are greater?
1 reply · active 824 weeks ago
Nomad,

I'm not sure that your test achieves the purpose of finding out whether or not pro-lifers are honest. Even if the results of your test found that none of them encouraged coupled over 30 to not have children wouldn't say anything about whether or not they really considered a fertilized egg to be a baby (yes I realize that sentence is convoluted, sorry). All it would say is that they consider all human life to be good, irrespective on its effects on society, no matter how deformed or ill. I suspect that many of them would already admit to that.

You and I may agree that having 8 kids due to poor IVF is unhealthy, or that people shouldn't be having IVF at all when adoption is such a viable and more ethical alternative. But I think that is a separate story from whether or not life starts at conception..
To wade in on the whole miscarriage thing - Chuck, you don't speak for everyone I'm afraid.

Before we had our first child we had at least three miscarriages that we know of (most miscarriages are not even recognised as such). Not one funeral. My wife works in obstetrics dealing with high risk pregancies - she sees a lot of women who have miscarried - your experience does not account for or agree with all of them.

I certainly didn't find Techskeptics comments thoughtless and I watched a doctor remove what remained of an embryo from my wife.
I'm trying to post a response but it hasn't been working, so I'm trying a slightly shorter post to see if I can get it through. I don't know what's going on, but I keep getting a box popping up saying there was a connection problem.

I just want to stress that I was focusing on the increased risk of spontaneous abortions (miscarriages) as women age. It seems that the miscarriages and the issue of things like Down's Syndrome are caused by more or less the same thing, but a pro life advocate would not concern him or herself with Down's Syndrome so I shall not either for the purposes of this discussion.

The words of the pro life movement, boiled down to their essentials, say that a developing human, whether you call it an embryo, blastocyst, or fetus, is A LIFE, and that it is a very bad thing if that life is not carried to term. But the actions do not show a consistent concern. If an induced abortion is murder, then allowing yourself to become pregnant by having sex (since birth control is not considered acceptable) when you know that you have risk factors, such as age, for an increased rate of spontaneous abortions and then having one should be akin to manslaughter.

Yet I see no campaign to attempt to prevent these events from occurring.

When I said honest I meant that on many levels, including with themselves. I do not mean to suggest that when you see pro life advocates marching at a rally they're all being intentionally dishonest. But if you look at what they do and what they say, the actions do not match the words. The actions show a significantly different motivation.
2 replies · active 824 weeks ago
Nomad,

Im sorry for your troubles. I will look into the issue when I get a chance. Strangely I have not had a problem with this comment system, but one other person told me he had some issues.

Thanks for clarifying, i understand your point better now.
I have the problem, that for all of your posts I get a "0 Comments" shown, which is obviously not true. Although I have no idea if this is related.
After I had trouble I refreshed the page and then it worked like normal.

Maybe refreshing fixed it, maybe it was just a coincidence, I cannot say. Don't worry about it on my account, I simply mentioned that I had trouble in case I ended up double posting.
yeah, I'm trying to fix that. I've put in the question to others who are using ID. Its not related.
Abortion is just wrong ! People who say that its ok to kill a baby after you made the choice to create his/her life, I don't know where you've been but once you make a choice you have to deal with the consequences. One of the consequences as a young woman is to make the right choice. Such as choosing to have your baby who has been still born IS the right choice. Wouldn't you rather be able to tell your friends that you had your stillborn baby, saw his/her face, grieved with your family and be remembered as the brave woman who had a beautiful baby and stuck through the pregnancy even though it was a stillborn? instead of saying that "oh ya i let the doctor cut my baby up " which one sounds more aweful? Tell me your thoughts and I did my research, tell me if you did yours...
Alex,

so you think a blastocyte is a baby?

So, you read the post and are now setting out to solve the worlds #1 cause of death: Miscarriage. Right?
You are saying that you are for checking each womans menstrual blood for fertilized eggs so that the egg can be named and a proper burial can be performed if one is found?

These are activities and concepts you are advocating?

You've never made a choice that you could change before you regret it? So, once you decide to go to the store to get cheerios, and your wife calls you to tell you you already have them, you still go to the store? You've never changed your mind about doing anything? You've never returned an item you bought or someone gave you?

So you are saying that if a young woman makes a repealable mistake, she deserves to go through the pain of childbirth and spend the rest of her life young adult life caring for a child? You think that a woman deserves this even if her efforts to prevent a pregnancy failed, or was raped or coerced?

you dont get to choose to have a stillborn child, frankly thats a dumb argument..

May I presume that you have actually adopted your children, and that you are adamantly convincing your friends and family to adopt? no? How strange.

Read Nomads post. Are you also advocating that there should be an age limit at which people should get pregnant, and that this limit should be somewhere in the 20's?

Yeah, I still think your pro-life stance is not only bullshit, not only misogynistic, not only promotes suffering, but is bad for the human population.

Abortion is not "just" wrong because you say it is. Its wrong if it promotes suffering generally, like forcing women to have unwanted babies does. Its wrong if it limits free will, like banning abortions does or having unwanted babies does. Its wrong if it adds cost to the society, like having hundreds of thousands of unwanted babies does.

If your post indicates the extent of your "research", i'll just say this... you are not very good at it. Answer my questions to see if you are honest with yourself.
most of the individuals live during a time wherever individuals have rather more decisions in relevancy physiological condition. Termination of physiological condition is that the most troublesome task for any girl. In relevancy abortion, there are many procedures to perform.

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